What's this Blog About?

Politics in Wisconsin as they roll up to every level... and some other thoughts that may cross my mind are explored here from my lefty point of view. My values shape my opinions. You'll always find them in here. Let's have some fun exploring why Liberal values are American values!

Your comments are both welcome and encouraged!
(The watercolor is called Magnolia Tree for Momma, by Audrey Crawford)

Saturday, November 01, 2008

This Will Make You Sick To Your Stomach... Someone Tell Me This Can't Happen in 2008!!!

We always knew Ohio was stolen and hence the presidency of the United States of America from John Kerry, but George W. Bush.

Now we know HOW!!!

Documents reveal how Ohio routed 2004 voting data through company that hosted external Bush Administration email accounts

Pretty disgusting huh?

The Bush Administration's email host (the people they pay to get email accounts from) received raw data from Ohio electronic voting machines before the votes were counted.

Can EVERYONE PLEASE vote Democratic straight down your tickets this year??? I'm just completely disgusted that they have so little respect for US as voters as to change our votes after we cast them just to win an election!!!

The GOP is UN-AMERICAN, UN-PATRIOTIC, FASCIST AND INSANE!!!

14 comments:

patrick said...

Ms. Crawford:

Before you go throwing around the Fascist lable so loosely, perhaps you should look up the definition of the term. When I look at your candidate, Obama, I'm concerned: consider how he pushed reporters from his plane who represented papers who had backed McCain; consider how his media surrogates illegally used state computers to investigate Joe the Plummer; consider how he and his congressional allies voice support for a fairness doctrine aimed--like the other actions--at punishing and removing descent. While all of these are severe, even these don't constitute fascisism. That political movement is defines as such:a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.

Now as you are a democrat and the democrats seek to control and regulate everything--shouldn't you look into your glass house before throwing stones?

georgia said...

Oh Patrick -

Long enough have we all endured 'your' rhetoric - those eloquent RIGHT words. (you are a genuine professional at placating the masses of repugnant asses by diverting attention with plenty of smoke and mirrors.)

I read your blather - and nowhere within it did you address the issue of Ohio and the issues Renee addressed - namely: stolen votes.

No - don't address the issue Renee has voiced concern {genuine concern} over. Smear Smear Smear - tell the crap often enough and surely SOMEONE will pay attention. Just like - who was it.... hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm - oh yeah - Goebbels.

The big lie - and you had to post it here????

Shame on you Patrick!!!! Why don't you just shut the #$&k up! (or perhaps link us all to YOUR blog so we can voice opinions there....)

patrick said...

Georgia:

Its your mouth that's full of dung.

Sure, I suppose you're right. I didn't directly address Ms. Crawford's points. But I didn't say they were full of B.S. either. The difference between yourself and Ms. Crawford (who has given me permission to use her first name, but which I usually don't as a sign of respect to her) is that she can--in most instances carry on an intellegent and civil discussion.

You, on the other hand, are too full of insults and anger to be taken seriously. Like all poor writers and failed poets, you believe that speaking loudly or insulting unfarily is the same as speaking the truth. It's not. But I wonder: Why are you so angry at those of us who hold a position rather opposite that your own? I thought the liberal democratic traditions which your party claims to uphold would defend to your last breath my right to express that opinion? The freedom of speech requires civility and patience as well as opening one's yap.

I'm actually not a nazi, and I'll await your sincere apology, Georgia. I'm sure that if Ms. Crawford wants to take issue with my comment, she will. She has turned on "moderate comments" and writes the blog so people will read her thoughts and respond. I'm actually shocked she let your comment through since it did not address her main point and amounted to another of your sleazy and foul-mouthed personal attacks.

Sincerely,

Patrick

Crawford's Take said...

Patrick, I have covered fascism in depth in the past... http://www.crawfordstake.com/search?q=fascism including posting the definitions...

What's funny about your comment is that fascism is blind patriotism, suspension of the rule of law, spying on citizens, torture, nationalism, targeting of a group of citizens as the "bad guys" (does "he's a A-rab" sound familiar?), control of women's reproduction, theocracy, racial superiority of the majority, etc... THIS GOP more closely mirrors fascism than any rulers in US history.

So funny how you see opening up society again as fascism... very confusing... and if Obama wins today, it will be because white voters supported him... there aren't enough blacks and minorities to elect anyone nationally in this country.

I find your arguements with Georgia SOOO entertaining! Please keep it up!

patrick said...

Ms. Crawford:

I agree that if Obama wins the election it will be because white voters have supported him--and I hope they would. I certainly believe that people are voting for him because of his ideas, and I hope his race plays very little or no role in this.

But Obama himself constantly calls for and end to the very partisan language you are using at times here. Do you really think that calling republicans fascists helps bring people together in the way that Obama--at his best--wants to do?

Anyway, enjoy your night--I think it might be very fun for you. But Thursday is on the horizon too.

Georgia: Still waiting for your apology--or is your pride so misplaced you can't?

Crawford's Take said...

Thank you Patrick for the well wishes! Hope you are transitioning well... I am worried that so many of my GOP friends seem to have lost their sense of humor and I'm finding it all a bit disturbing. I want to be able to come together around some common problems this country has and we will need the input and ideas from everyone to make it happen. I think McCain had a few plans that might be helpful for example raised the child tax exemption to $7,000 would be really cool! I just think that overall he allowed himself to fall victim to the fierce anger of the radical right and lost who he was along the way... Sorry I haven't posted in a few days even though I have a ton to say, but I've been swamped at work and getting home to late to feel like blogging! LOL!

Oh yeah, only my mother in law was Ms. Crawford. I really appreciate the courtesy, but prefer you call me Renee.

georgia said...

Hey Patrick...

Keep waiting for that apology.

It is always good to have something to look forward to isn't it?

I stand by my comments to you - and I'm glad you actually knew who
Goebbles was. I'm sure you can identify with the concept - as YOUR party has been using it for the past eight years...(WMDs - Security - Private Citizen telephone tapping without warrant - etc)

We are in dire times - economy in the toilet - two on-going wars - all of us at each others throats over .... words.

Get over yourself. No apology!!!!

Jason Lockwood said...

I don't normally post on people's blogs - and especially not political ones these days. I have to note something, though, and that is the puerile nature of the exchanges.

There used to be a time of civil discourse where people who disagreed did not hurl epithets and act as if that constituted discussion and rational debate. In the current emotionalism of American politics, each side snipes and gets down in the gutter, but neither adequately makes a case.

This particular exchange is yet another example of it.

I would admonish Renee to use her terms carefully. Fascism isn't a catch word to be cast at one's opponents with impunity. It is a specific political system with specific collectivist goals. I am not saying this as a personal attack of Renee. I have heard the term used so frequently that it has no meaning unless one chooses to define the term.

The current election, in my view, was a race to the bottom, intellectually speaking. Neither side had ideas to put forth. Rather they engaged in empty emotional slogans ready made to evoke reactions, but not thinking. I once heard Mr Obama referred to as the "Hallmark President." Now, I don't know if the term was uttered by someone on the right or the left, but it's fitting in these times that a man was elected President not on the basis of his explicit ideas, but on the emotional wave of the moment. In the inimitable words of Norma Desmond, "It's the pictures that got small."

When the fawning admirers of such emptiness wake up, they may find their new hero is less than ideal. They may find that promises of more free bounty are not exactly free after all. The economic law of supply and demand is not so easily thwarted without grave repercussions.

Crawford's Take said...

Well, if he closes Gitmo (as he said again yesterday he is already working on), ends Special Rendition and torture and manages to end the Iraq War with dignity, then I'm all good with him. It's a good start in the right direction away from fascism.

Fascism is a political philosophy marked by very specific actions. The argument CAN be made that those actions include NSA spying, scapegoating a religion, suspension of civil liberties and rights, shutting down women's rights to control their reproduction, government secrecy and the shutting down of dissent, unjust preemptive war, and most definitely the justification of torture.

All of these have been done by this exiting administration and they are not flippant or idle steps towards fascism. In fact they are the very definition of it. Read the history of it. The worst thing you can do when fascist rule takes seed is pretend like it's not happening or poo poo it as rhetoric. These are real actions taken by this government and they amount to the steps a fascist leader would take to shut down the people. The people still have a voice though and they exercised it because I'm not the only person concerned about the laws that have been passed and the actions taken in the last 8 years.

I'm NEVER called conservatives or even the conservative movement fascist! Only the actions that have been taken by THIS administration and their yes sir congress that completely scared me to no end... And by the way, my concern is not just with the GOP, but also with the Dems in congress the last 2 years that passed things like telecom immunity and nsa spying including Obama... and I was vocal about that out here.

I may have hope that at least Obama will listen to us, but I still believe though that the work has just begun to restore our constitution and the rule of law and turn back the damage done to our security, our safety and our liberty in the dark period of now American history.

And Patrick, I turned off moderate comments again only a few days after I turned it on due to a very specific breech of my code out here...

This is and hopefully always will be a free speech zone!

patrick said...

Ms. Renee:

You did call the GOP Fascist. Read your own post.

As far as those other things you mention--the Bush administration has been very careful not to scapegoat islam (but we all know Islam scapegoats the US); NSA spying is predicated on foriegn agents and members of terrorist organizations; no civil liberties have been suspended; women are still free to reproduce and, if they decide, destroy their babies even after they survive abortion; To some extent governments are all secret, but dissent has been louder than ever here; We have engaged in pre-emptive war and perhaps tortures enemy combatants. The last two certainly don't equal fascism. They would be defined as events which were transient according to the Dec. of Ind. But I have to really wonder what personal sense of mission must be wraped up for you in calling Bush a fascist?

The fact is, that when you make this hugely emotional claim, you cast all those people living around the world in real fascist states--syria, iran, china, venezuela, all those millions of womes living there--into deeper darkness. What a shame. By the way, Iraq was formerly a fascist nation. When did the left stop hating these evil regimes? Would you have been more worried about Reagan or the South Africa of the 1980's?

Crawford's Take said...

Okay, so in the context of what I wrote, I meant the Bush Administration that now represents the GOP (thankfully not for much longer)...

As far as civil liberties being taken away, we have had attacks on the 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th amendments in the last 8 years... The right to privacy has been nearly decimated and a woman's right to choose although still technically in effect has been so eroded that in states like WI it's nearly impossible to exercise that right. Hence Milwaukee having the highest teen pregnancy rate in this country. Not only that, but the right to birth control itself is in jeopardy under this administration and the state legislatures that somehow think they are legislating morality rather than allowing women and doctors make the decisions about their own health care...

I hated Reagan. His policies made me have to leave and Ivy league school because he cut my funding program and my family was too poor to make up the difference. I didn't have a soapbox like I do now, but the Reagan years were the worst years of my life because of the changes he made that set me back 20 years... As for South Africa, don't even start to throw that at me! I built and lived shanty towns in college. I marched and sat in and was arrested for divestment at my university and yes, we won that battle. You are probably not even old enough to know why South Africa fell. Start by reading Michener's The Covenant and when you get through 1400 pages of history on South Africa, we can discuss it in depth. I read it by the way when I was 14...

I oppose fascism all over the world. Yes, Iraq was fascist. Of course it was... Was that worth soon to be 5,000 US citizen's lives and the financial stability of this country. Was it worth not catching and having to be afraid of the boogie man Bin Laden that Bush has used to terrify the American public for 7 years now?

Was that worth selling Yellowstone to the Chinese government? Because effectively, if they decided to call in that debt that's all the collateral the US government has left since this administration destroyed our banking system. Which by the way is another tenant of fascism, governmental control of the financial and corporate institutions in the country. Bush's last legacy, he bought the banking system... Was it worth the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, the NSA spying on soldiers and listening in, giggling as they had phone sex with their wives? Was it worth jailing journalists? Was it worth watching people die in the aftermath of New Orleans while Bush continued his vacation oblivious and we sat at home horrified? Was it worth the department of homeland security? A huge money sucking ineffective big government bureaucracy? Was it worth our reputation overseas? Was it worth stealing an election from the will of the American people (which I noticed you conveniently have yet to comment on the original point of the post, instead glamming onto one word you didn't like...)? Was it worth gagging librarians? Picking up people off the streets, torturing them in other countrys for a year and then dropping them off on a country road in Macedonia because they had the wrong guy? Was it worth what we got for it? Was it worth all of that? I could go on... for a really long time... Does any of this sound like a free democratic capitalist society to you?

No, it was not worth any of it, because there were worse fascist regimes in this world (some of them you named) and the one Bush went after just happened to vindicate daddy Bush and for the first time since 1972 Exxon Mobile set up an office in Baghdad... That's why we went to Baghdad. That's it plain and simple. Those two reasons.

What amazes me is that conservatives (wait, stop here and think about the meaning of that word) have put up with the excesses of this administration for so long and still continue to defend it.

If your life is not better for years from now, if we are not freer people, if healthcare is not more affordable and the job market hasn't started to pick up, if our freedoms have not been restored and our banking system regulated so that it can be handed back to private hands... If you aren't making more money and paying less in taxes. If these things and all the others Obama has promised do not happen in 4 years or at least start to be implemented, then I owe you dinner. You have my word.

Crawford's Take said...

The confusion probably comes in that I don't consider this GOP/Bush administration conservative or even a part of the conservative movement... I don't even consider most of my conservative friends part of this GOP. They are conservative for reason so far beyond what this administration has done that they no longer can be considered part of the same. You might be surprised at how fiscally conservative I am actually. I just see certain things that are worth spending money on (because the are income generators instead of loss leaders, like education-pay now and that person becomes a taxpayer, instead of prison-don't pay for education and instead pay to lock them up for decades...) that conservatives do not... Cause and effect play heavily into my fiscal responsibility. I am continually surprised that anyone considers this administration and this GOP as conservative by any definition of the term...

patrick said...

Renee:

You draw the conclusion you want--I draw the conclusion I want.

"Basically, the whole thing seems highly speculative," Dill said. "It's important to distinguish 'possible' from 'probable' here. I don't even know if this is possible. More details about how the tabulators worked in those particular counties, who was managing them, how the results were uploaded, whether they were all the same kind, etc. would help establish that."

But the original article does not suggest that the election was stolen. Besides, as long as all the people who wanted to vote were allowed to do so--who cares, right? You think this is such a big deal, what about my concerns over voter fraud right here is wisconsin? At least one woman has already come forward to admit she voted for Obama twice. Seems shocking that you suddenly care about voter fraud now that you suspect a republican might have been involved.

As for your other claims regarding the fascism of the Bush administration, why not present more evidence and a more detailed argument. Persuasion requires more than random claims.

As far as South Africa goes, I did my work too. Though I was never arrested, I slept in the cardboard shacks at MU--the ones set up between the old union and the foriegn language building. I wrote letters through Amnesty International (I actually got a response from some ministry in egypt once) Was it worth it to spend 5,000 lives in Iraq to free millions--yes. While I actually respect our soldiers, I recognize that their job is to go into harm's way.

patrick said...

by the way, novels might not be the best source of historical information.