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Politics in Wisconsin as they roll up to every level... and some other thoughts that may cross my mind are explored here from my lefty point of view. My values shape my opinions. You'll always find them in here. Let's have some fun exploring why Liberal values are American values!

Your comments are both welcome and encouraged!
(The watercolor is called Magnolia Tree for Momma, by Audrey Crawford)

Saturday, September 19, 2009

Anti-Govt Rally Masked as Anti-Healthcare Rally in Milwaukee Turns Violent

I'm sorry I don't have pictures... If anyone who had a camera can post them, please do. My husband and I were going for a drive on the lakefront in Milwaukee and went by an anti-gov't/anti-healthcare rally with about 300-500 people at Veteran's Park.

We decided to double back and go into the parking lot behind the rally and just go quietly watch and check out what was going on. A woman I didn't recognize was on the podium as we approached the rally. The average age seemed to be above 40 and except for one black couple and a black family with 15 children (one of them holding a sign that said something like "We drink juice, not kool aid") it was all white.

Here are my actual Facebook status updates as we walked into the rally:

When someone says bigot, say thank you when someone says nazi laugh, that's an actual quote from the podium at the anti- govt rally at Vets Park.


Th They are calling themselves "the people's mob"


Joe the plummer just gott in a fight and they guy the mob attacked is getting arrested... (here I have to say, I'm unclear as to Joe's role just that he was in the mob)


He had 30 guys surrounbding him and attacking him and HE just got arrested! Blood around his face


The tussle's over...


That poor guy was walking away being chased by an angry mob who was surrounding him, pulling on him, at what point did he have a right to defend himself from 30 people attacking him?


This was SCARY, these people on the lakefront today were being told, this is a revolution, being told they were the people's mob? At what point do the speakers at this rally have some responsiblity for inciting violence? This is an honest question.



I was shocked and sorry for the typos, but here's the full account of what happened.

A woman at the podium was making the statements (exact words above) I was posting as I wandered into the rally. We were on the north entrance and as I was typing her words, I hear a commotion. I looked up and saw an angry mob of angry white men chasing an older white man with a backpack. He was yelling "I have a right to free speech too." The crowd was yelling, "You should die. You're not an American., etc..." They started grabbing at him as he kept trying to leave the event. The crowd was growing (eventually to about 30 people) and the man clearly scared and angry and being grabbed, pushed and surrounded to impede his attempts to escape, I believed was in imminent danger. He was shouting back at them and attempting to defend himself from the crowd and the sheriffs about 300 yards away couldn't see what was going on because of the vendor booths in their way. I made a decision and ran to get the sheriffs.

The man traveled about 300 yards attempting to escape the growing crowd. The crowd was riled up and screaming en masse, continuing to chase the man down, stop his movement, push and pull on his and in general attack the guy.

Then Joe the Plumber joined the tussle. I kid you not. I have no idea his role in it, just that he was IN THE MIDDLE of the crowd. The sheriffs get there, I turn to look at Joe the Plumber and the next thing I know the guy being assaulted by the crowd is bloody on the ground under the knee of two sheriffs and being cuffed. His face was bloody, there was something about a broken camera and I became scared of the crowd who were cheering and congratulating the sheriffs for "doing a great job". There was a girl who said something about someone in that crowd punching her. I decided to walk away from it all because honestly, I saw a sign denouncing the org I work for and was afraid I might be spotted by someone who recognized me and become the next target of the crowd. I just wanted to listen to the speakers and tell what I saw, and I'd seen enough.

After it all dispersed, I did make a statement to the sheriffs telling the same story as above. The sheriffs said to me, "Well, that's a different story than the other people just told us." I bet it was...

So, I'm interested in my reader's thoughts on this entire incident. As we've expected this revolutionary movement that has been calling people to revolution, includes gun-toting nut bags, and overall is promoting violence has turned to violence.

Is the discourse out of control?

At what point do we call this violent "revolution" that's embracing bigotry and nazism from the stage out for their actions?

Do you think there's any connection between the call to violence on the stage and the actions minutes later on the ground?

Will this get any media play or be ignored as an anomoly?

Will the rally leaders denounce the violence or applaud it?

Let's see if we can have a civil discourse here.


77 comments:

Anita said...

Thanks for your take on this event. It will be interesting to see how local media covers this! I am glad you and your husband are safely away from the "peoples mob."

Georgia said...

The Milwaukee police are responsible for the safety of all congregants at protests..... that said .... and knowing the Police (remember my daughter...)
Don't go to any more rallys Renee. No one is safe from those anti-Americans!!!!

Corey said...

I'm not sure where this is coming from. I was behind the stage today from approx 2:30p until well after 5p. I neither saw nor heard ANYTHING remotely close to this going on. You mention you have no pictures. Odd. No cell phone?
BTW, there 10,000 people there today. Not 300-500.

Crawford's Take said...

http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/59890852.html

The JS article says thousands in the headline, but 100's in the text. There were NO 10,000 people there when I was there... This was on the north end of the rally. Check sheriff's reports. I had a Blackberry, but the memory was unfortunately full and I decided to just post what I was seeing as I saw it, so I had at least a written record... Sorry about no pics! People there HAD cameras I suspect the pics will surface sooner rather than later...

The JS missed the story altogether, but after the sheriff reports come out, the incident will be verified as happening.

Kimberish said...

There's a certain group - a loud group - that isn't at all interested in civil discourse. They're interested in bullying!

Crawford's Take said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs46jsrPTEg

Some video of the tail end of this after I got the sheriffs involved. You can SEE Joe the Plummer in the video for just a moment. He has on a tan shirt...

Kimberish said...

OMG! For disagreeing with the majority there, he deserved the police pouncing on him? Give me a break! How angering! How wrong! That truly IS a mob!

Very scary! I fear for our country.

GChicks said...

Crawford, you lie, I know it and you know it! I have video I shot. Not Repub. (can't stand them, not Dem. can't stand them either!) But, for the Love of God, if you are gonna blog, be truthful! People, don't believe everything you read, question!!! Please! Gail Chicks, MIlwaukee, WI

MaryRW said...

Holy moley, Renee. So disturbing. Please be safe, and thank you for telling us what you saw.

Crawford's Take said...

Chicks... Post it then...

Crawford's Take said...

the video I posted confirms the second half of my story... almost word for word (except there were more cops on top of him)... why make up the first half?

Crawford's Take said...

and what exactly do you think I lied about? LOL

Crawford's Take said...

JTP is in .44 of the video... a bit before and after... he's the bald guy in the middle of the fray (as I reported it)

Crawford's Take said...

I was asked this by someone on Facebook.

Renee, why do you let them post that crap in the comments on your blog. You don't deserve to be treated like that. I'm indignant on your behalf. Stay safe, OK? And thanks for telling it like it is. Bless you!

Here's my response: I let comments post no matter what unless they are spamming, etc... I believe in free speech and think their crazy comments speak for themselves. I also thing that asking for civil discourse and getting that continues to prove my point ;)

douglas said...

This crazy loon( the so called beaten by the cops guy) started near the front of the stage. He was an antagonizing asshole. I saw him slap a drink out of a 17 y/o girls hand. He broke anothers camera by slamming it to the ground and also pushed and bullied many others cameras.

He kept yammering on about I HAVE FREE SPEECH, while the same argument was pointed back at him. THIS GUY WAS A BULLY and most likely did this for this purpose, for Dems to hate on an otherwise festive time.

Joe the Plumber joined in and he WAS BREAKING UP THE SQUABBLE! He had a booth set up and when he saw what was happening he got between the squabbling. So don't slur him. He said to me, "we don't need this." I agree. But he didn't even know what happened but I did.

The Sheirff's told the guy to leave. He called the cops Pigs and Fuckers and then started to go back. The cops tackled him and his face got fucked up from the ground because of his delusional flailing.

I was there I SAW IT! I hope you let this comment shed some truth on YOUR hatred of us who oppose this government.

ps....When the bloodied idiot was being put in the Sheirff's car he yelled, " I got Diabetes."

har..I hope he enjoys his weekend in jail. I also hope the minor will press charges.

peace

Crawford's Take said...

I was VERY clear out here to say that "I don't know his role in it." referring to JTP... I really don't, I just know he was in the middle of this mess.

The vitriolic anger of the day seems to be spilling into our civil discourse...

GChicks said...

HE ATTEMPTED TO RUSH THE STAGE AS vICKI mCkENNA WAS SPEAKING BUT WAS STOPPED BY OTHER MEN, A wOMAN TOOK HIS PICTURE, HE THEN STRUCK HER, AND WAS FOLLOWED TIL' LAW ENFORCEMENT WHICH WAS AT THE BACK OF 10,000 FOLKS, COULD BE SUMMOND, HE WAS SCREAMING IN THE FACES AND SWATTING AT MULTIPE PEOPLE.When one of the individuals who witnessed the striking reported is to the LEOs, they attempted to detain him , and he tried to flee! It is my understanding that his charge(es) will be reviewed by the City Attorney Monday morning! Driving by, as you posted, does not give you a clear view, and to make the staement you did, constitutes a lie, as for posting, Oh I will, but to the media, not some biased individual!

douglas said...

Crawford, no one was being angry BESIDES the guy you are choosing to paint as some kind of a hero. Maybe he is to you. That's fine. Dude deserved to get face planted. He was a jackass of the third degree. There were no problems besides him. And he started it all. I know it sounds nanny-nanny boo-boo but it is the truth.

Crawford's Take said...

I was IN the crowd when it happened... read my post again carefully this time Chick... I only reported what I actually saw. You're talking about stuff that may have happened before I saw the scuffle starting...

I only know the stuff I SAW and that's all I reported on. If other things happened I didn't see them. I was also clear that I didn't SEE the police take down.

I SAW a growing and angry mob chasing a man trying to get away from them.

I WENT TO GET THE SHERIFFS...

Crawford's Take said...

NO ONE was going to get the sheriffs... I DID THAT...

Crawford's Take said...

Post your video Chicks...

and Douglas... the video doesn't exactly show everyone else calm around the guy... watch it again...

GChicks said...

Well give yourself a pat on the back, then you stated you were typing words, saw a man trying to get away from other individuals, well, just maybe this person committed a crime, you notified deputies (yeah, I used to be one) But guess who showed, the city cops, why because, someone was way ahead of you. BTW, do you happen to know this out of control individual, because you seem very sympathetic to him. Just curious...

Crawford's Take said...

Confirmation that he was injured... http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/59904297.html

douglas said...

Of course other people were pissed...The guy arrested was an asshole. I don't understand why you don't get that. HE was the disruptor. I suppose if a red neck right winger interrupted a code pink rally the code pinkers would act like mother Teresa? Pathetic argument.

Crawford's Take said...

I have NO idea who he is, what his name is or anything about him. I just told what I saw...

Crawford's Take said...

and once again, I was walking in from the North parking lot when I saw this happening...

Crawford's Take said...

the guy was walking away when I first saw him... walking away...

post your video chicks... or does it further prove my story???

Crawford's Take said...

the sheriff's dept confirmed the story to the JS reporter... (kink above

"One fight broke out at the Taxpayer Tea Party event Saturday at Veterans Park and a 50-year-old man was injured, the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Department said."

GChicks said...

Crawford, then , by your own admission, you, basically, saw nothing, I had followed this individual for about 5 minutes, was taping, saw Joe the Plumber attempt to diffuse this situation, saw this apparently Emotionally Disturbed Person try to engage men in fights and when they stood up to him, he fled. I saw much,, I have been in law enforcement in both public and private for 14 years, I understand what was ahpeening. Please try to keep an open mind, and not just write from the hip, or you will marginalize yourself, just like all the rest!

Crawford's Take said...

I'm telling you all I saw. Where's your video?

Crawford's Take said...

Editing out the good parts? Post it raw and all of it... I only posted on what I saw...

Crawford's Take said...

I'm standing by what I saw, what happened before, what I didn't see because I ran for the sheriffs, turning towards JTP and missing the take down... I didn't see that. I only posted on what I SAW...

GChicks said...

I am surely not posting it here for you to claim exclusive and a fake, I will give it to someone like Vicki McKenna who speaks the truth, no matter whom it pisses off!

Crawford's Take said...

Just post it on You Tube... sigh... jeez... get a grip... I'll link to it, you retain the rights...

Crawford's Take said...

Yeah, she was a real winner... I take it she's the one who said this: "When someone says bigot, say thank you when someone says nazi laugh,"

actually I think in both cases she said "calls you a" but was trying to get it posted on my FB account so I didn't forget the gist of it...

James Wigderson said...

GChicks, I'll tell you what. Send me the video. jamesmdw@yahoo.com. I'll make sure that the video is posted accurately. Renee knows me and will trust me, and I'm certain my conservative credentials are sufficient. Fair enough?

- James Wigderson
www.wigderson.com

Crawford's Take said...

Deal James! I just want to see it. She's cracking me up with the caution. LOL. Then a conservative blogger gets the exclusive (who cares, but obviously you've misrepresented your political leanings...) and you can be comfortable knowing I didn't get to talk about it first LOl!

Thanks James for stepping in here! I appreciate the offer and yes, I do trust you ;)

GChicks said...

JW, I may take you up on this, you have a FB account? Is it private, see, mine is not , I am what I say I am. G

Crawford's Take said...

I find it funny that I've been labeled as having hatred for the people at the rally. I don't hate anyone. James will confirm that I'm as easy going as the next person. I will say that I strongly disagree with the comments from the stage as hateful, violent and angry. I will admit all the anger around me terrified me. You and I both decided to listen to those comments. If you agree with them, that's on you LOL!

Crawford's Take said...

Follow up post and more to come!

http://www.crawfordstake.com/2009/09/updates-on-fight-at-tea-pary-rally-in.html

Crawford's Take said...

Thanks everyone for your comments on this tonight! I want to reiterate one thing. Nothing said so far actually disputes anything I've said or seen. It may add context to it, but doesn't change anything I witnessed.

Clutch said...

The YouTube vid seems quite clearly to show that lots of people around this guy are yelling/screaming angrily, confirming Ms Crawford's initial report. Compare this with douglas's (initial) claim: "Crawford, no one was being angry BESIDES the guy you are choosing to paint as some kind of a hero". (Though he at least changed this story to "Of course other people were pissed...The guy arrested was an asshole", after the video was drawn to his attention.)

The video also seems to show the man walking away from the yelling crowd towards a less populated area before he was tackled, confirming Ms Crawford's report that he was trying to leave.

I can't hear anything he said to the police nor what they said to him before they jumped him.

Don said...

"Some video of the tail end of this after I got the sheriffs involved." You can SEE Joe the Plummer in the video for just a moment. He has on a tan shirt... You got the Sheriffs involved? Those were city police officers not sheriff. If you were looking for sheriffs you didn't see all that happened. So don't try to act like you know what happened, you don't.

Don said...

Kimberish said...

OMG! For disagreeing with the majority there, he deserved the police pouncing on him? Give me a break! How angering! How wrong! That truly IS a mob!

Very scary! I fear for our country.

He got arrested for hitting a 15 year girl. You are clueless.

Don said...

I was VERY clear out here to say that "I don't know his role in it." referring to JTP... I really don't, I just know he was in the middle of this mess.

Then why mention it?

The vitriolic anger of the day seems to be spilling into our civil discourse...

your boy was the angry one, who was trying to start something

Don said...

An absolutely ignorant and inflammatory comment. Hell several speakers there were black and many were in the audience.

"except for one black couple and a black family with 15 children (one of them holding a sign that said something like "We drink juice, not kool aid") it was all white"

Don said...

So the Sheriffs dept can't count I guess... The Milwaukee County Sheriff’s Department estimated attendence at 10,000....

"rally with about 300-500 people at Veteran's Park."

Downtown Brown said...

Renee, Thanks for offering the opportunity to add comments to your blog. In your first paragraph I am afraid you lost all credibility. All of the video and the reports of the event say at least 3000, and up to 10,000 attendees. You somehow mistake 3000 for 300?? Second point you and husband just happened to be heading down to the Lakefront? C'mon. Having watched now 4 video's of the events nothing matches your "eyewitness" report. so it's clear you are trying to create a scenario for political reasons that simply didn't happen as outlined in your testimony, of the events.

Don said...

http://www.weeweedup.us/2009/09/20/milwaukee-tea-party-10000-strong-plus-1-lib-thug/

this link will take you to the video, the video the debunks over 90% of your statement.

Downtown Brown said...

Furthermore Renee, reading your profile info. Your bias is loud and clear. Sounds like your involved with/ or at the least a supporter of the local ACORN unit. Based on the the current track record of ACORN and their willingness to ignore voter registration laws, commit and condone Electoral fraud. It would make sense that numbers wouldn't stack up. I eagerly await the Police report of the incident.

M.E. said...

I was there, at the back of the crowd. We saw the man with a backpack gesturing very angrily, hands up in the air, shouting in people's faces, as he moved from the front of the crowd to the back, in our line of vision to the left.

He was shouting at people and lunging toward them, getting in their faces, but I didn't see any physical contact on either side... UNTIL I saw him hit a woman's arm so as to knock her camera to the ground. I saw that and would swear to it on a witness stand.

After that, he moved behind some other people, and I couldn't see him anymore. Just then the sheriff pulled up and I heard some people cheer.

We happened to be standing right behind the family that I think you mentioned. They did not have 15 children -- in fact how do you even know it was just one family?? Did you talk to them?? -- but they were a beautiful, big family of the most well-behaved kids you could ask for. I talked to them when I asked if we could talk a picture of one of the kids' signs.

They weren't the only black people there, and there were Hispanic and Asian people as well. The speaker lineup was quite diverse, with, I think, three black speakers, two Asians, and two Hispanics (though I may be wrong as I tend to focus more on peole's ideas than on their race or ethnicity.)

Finally, the crowd size: I'm guessing there were easily 6,000 people there. Sheriff's department apparently says 10,000. I wouldn't be surprised.

It was a peaceful, orderly crowd, with the exception of one trouble-maker.

Clutch said...

"So the Sheriffs dept can't count I guess..."

Fair enough. Do you accept the D.C. fire department's count at the Washington protest? It wouldn't be very principled for you just to believe whatever source conveniently estimates the highest number of teabaggers.

"He got arrested for hitting a 15 year girl"

Is there video of him knocking a drink held by a 17 year-old -- I mean, hitting a 15 year-old girl? He may well have done, of course. But video evidence would be preferable to the say-so of an "angry mob" -- that's Malkin's proud description, not mine.

"http://www.weeweedup.us/2009/09/20/milwaukee-tea-party-10000-strong-plus-1-lib-thug/

this link will take you to the video, the video the debunks over 90% of your statement."

Could you clearly explain which of Ms Crawford's statements are falsified by that video? They all seem either consistent with it or quite clearly confirmed by it. Thanks.

M.E. said...

Oh, and one more thing: You didn't really understand Vicki McKenna's point. The reason we conservatives should be glad when leftists call us "racists" is because that means they are losing the argument! Once they have to start with the name-calling, it's obvious that they know they can't win on the merits of their position.

Also, the more they call us bigots, the more they'll antagonize the vast majority of Americans who really don't like that kind of name-calling, especially when it's so clearly not true.

Please try to understand that those of us on the conservative side dislike the policies advocated by President Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Carter, and all the rest. You notice that list is a mix of white and black, male and female. It's all about the ideas that people have; it's not about their race or gender or whatever else.

Clearly, the speaker lineup yesterday proved that point. We had a pretty diverse lineup: Sheriff Clark, Michelle Malkin, Manny Perez, Joe the Plumber, Willie Soon, PhD, Vicki McKenna, James T. Harris, etc. etc. We cheered just as loudly for the male, female, black, white, Asian, and Hispanic speakers.

The more the left calls us "racist", the more ridiculous they look because it's so easy to prove it false.

That's why Vicki McKenna said we should say "thank you" when they do the name-calling: we know it will ultimately bring more people over to our way of thinking.

Call Me Mom said...

Interesting post. I think it speaks more to the fact that our attitudes shape our perceptions than anything about one side or the other of the political debate.
I have video of Ms. McKenna's speech to the Sheboygan TEA Party on my blog. I have also posted it on youtube for those who may wish to see it. It sounds substantially similar to what I have read here.
Perhaps, by watching it, you may be able to evaluate what she said objectively rather than through the pre-disposed bias presented here.
I have no doubt that this poster went into this rally with the notion that she would see an angry mob, so I am not surprised that her perception was of an angry mob, rather than a group of citizens doing their duty in attempting to keep someone from running from the police after committing an act of violence. The two can appear similar.
I think we all need to take a step back and start learning how to evaluate things objectively rather than subjectively if we want to keep our republic.

Crawford's Take said...

The wee weed up (is this a conservative pot head?) video is definitely clearer, but again is only the last two minutes or so of an incident that lasted at least 5-7 minutes... Clutch, figure out a way to show it all yet?

It doesn't disprove my comments. The sheriffs had jurisdiction which is why I went to get them. MPD did do the takedown, but the sheriffs I went to get made the arrest...

I find it interesting that I haven't yet seen a longer video that shows anything prior to this....

Dan said...

Based on the comments you wrote and from other sites, one can only conclude that you saw what you wanted to see. You wrote what you wanted to write and hoped people believe it.
The fact that you brought race into it pretty much proves that you are a bigot.

Crawford's Take said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnF6O42YmbE

This is the video of McKenna's speech. Section 4:40 to 6:51 pay attention to the words. Then she goes on an anti-Obama speech, anti-media (she conveniently leaves out FOX), and then into the whole bigot, Nazi, terrorism embracing portion of the speech. at 8:35 is when she starts calling them "the People's Mob". She uses phrases like "they're terrified" and "revolution". When this video ends is right around when I first noticed this incident...

This video is the words she was saying during the fight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSw82JmivZo

Some choice quotes from the speech I heard and referenced in this blog...

"When you go home it's not over." "grab their ankles and do what they want" If that's not a sexual reference (and a distasteful reference to rape no less). McKenna

"I'm afraid that there are going to be political assassinations." "I'm terrified!"(refering to the democrats she referenced immediately before). "You should be terrified!" McKenna

"Nancy Pelosi is terrified because she can hear Milwaukee inside her own home district." McKenna

The language is what's so violent about this speech. If you think, nazis, terrorists, bigots, rape and assassinations are funny, maybe you get the satire.

I don't.

Crawford's Take said...

"unless their afraid of us, they won't do it, make the government fear you, make them terrified" McKenna (vid 2)

Joe said...

You asked Gail Chicks what you lied about. What did you lie about... lets see, where to begin?

Oddly enough, you were truthful about 1 thing. There were cameras there. In fact, a lot of what you claimed to be true can be debunked with video and pictures at: http://randallmelchert.com/2009/09/19/milwaukee-tea-party-91909-with-arrest-video/

"The Milwaukee County Sheriff’s Department estimated the crowd at Veteran’s Park at 8,000 to 10,000"

The You Tube link you posted actually does an equal amount to debunk your story.

The only ones who are seen touching this man are police. You can plainly see as well that he is resisting arrest.

The video you posted DOES NOT confirm your story word for word. Nowhere in the video you posted is that man touched or struck by anyone other than Milwaukee Police. Nowhere in that video do you see him being restrained from leaving, but rather angry people following him and yelling at him... not illegal, FYI.

Your statement was different from that of others "You bet it was..." ... and the camera's proved it. The only part of what you stated that could be even considered true was that Joe the Plumber - or a guy that looked a lot like him - was there.

Police don't pounce on you like that unless you have done something. From what I've heard (I didn't see the fight) was that he swung at a cop. Do you even know any police officers?

Lady, I don't know if you were at this event or not, but I was. You have given us no proof that you were other than to say you were. I was on the sound and video crew. You're lying and you know it. I know for a fact that from the stage - on the south end - to the only entrance - on the north end, was 589 feet - I had to measure it. Where does this "300 yards" that this man "traveled to escape" come into play? You have a seriously warped conception on measurements and estimates. Did your husband tell you that his unit is 18 inches long?

And to prove that I was there, I've posted some pictures...
http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/rnr/1384996528.html
Fortunately my phone WASN'T full of pictures, so I had some room to take more.

Either you are lying, or (more dangerously) you think you are telling the truth. THAT is a scary thing. Either way, you're full of sh*t.

Joe said...

Your story is full of holes. You stated:
................................
We decided to double back and go into the parking lot behind the rally and just go quietly watch and check out what was going on. A woman I didn't recognize was on the podium as we approached the rally. The average age seemed to be above 40...
................................
The parking lot behind the rally was 150 yards to the south of the stage, and probably 350 yards from the north entrance. Fairly impressive that at 150 you were able to deduce the average age of the attendees. That, and from the parking lot (of the War Memorial) to even SEE the attendees, you had to look through a large power converter, the stage itself, and a semi trailer with a jumbo-tron on it.

Then you posted:
..................................

A woman at the podium was making the statements (exact words above) I was posting as I wandered into the rally. We were on the north entrance and as I was typing her words, I hear a commotion.
..................................

So I have to ask, which is it? Were you at the parking lot at the south entrance, 150 yards from the stage or were you at the north entrance, 600 feet to the north of the stage? Of course you didn't recognize the woman from the parking lot... she was 150 yards away, she had her back towards you and you couldn't hear what she was saying. I know this because the people standing immediately behind the stage said they couldn't hear what she was saying.

You claim there were no police within 300 yards while the yelling was going on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs46jsrPTEg If you look at this video, you can clearly see police officers (around the 0:40-0:50 mark) Please note at the beginning of the video... who seems to be screaming and waving his arms around, and who seems to be speaking calmly and only motioning towards himself?

The people in the bright yellow shirts are AFP volunteers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GdO3UaL-KY Notice in this video that they are trying to keep the angry liberal and the republican protestors away from each other, or at least out of one-another's faces.

Also, you'll have to forgive me... you claim to be in the midst of all the action and right near Joe the Plumber. In the several video posts on YouTube, from the several camera angles, I can't seem to see you anywhere, and I know what you look like due to the picture on your blog page. I don't actually see any 40-something African American women....

So, you have offered us no imperical proof that you were there, other than your word. I could have been tweeting about the event as well... just as easily if someone were there telling me what was going on.

Sorry, but I've gotta call BS on this one.

Joe said...

unless their afraid of us, they won't do it, make the government fear you, make them terrified" McKenna (vid 2)

You post this as though you are chastising it....

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-Thomas Jefferson


Vicki McKenna is referencing a quote of a founding father and you chastise her for it? Well done.

"The language is what's so violent about this speech. If you think, nazis, terrorists, bigots, rape and assassinations are funny, maybe you get the satire. I don't"

You're right, there's nothing funny or satirical about any of these words, or just randomly throwing them around. Its a good thing that no Democrats do that...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/09/15/2009-09-15_former_president_jimmy_carter_calls_rep_joe_wilsons_you_lie_outburst_racist.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGRUx2b0ArM

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message882649/pg3

Okay, well maybe they do, but nobody so prominent as Vicki McKenna. *cough cough Nancy Pelosi and Jimmy Carter cough*


Oh, Renee, please keep posting. I've found a new favorite website. I could seriously go on tearing you up all day.

Here's the funny part. I'm an average Joe, without my own political blogging website, or impressive political statistics such as yourself.

Well done.

Rick Braun said...

By Renee's standards for reporting an incident, Lee Harvey Oswald was just an innocent man when the mob of police officers inexplicably went after him that Friday afternoon at a movie theatre in Dallas.

Zach W. said...

I love the "grass roots" movement that was able to have such massive viewing screens.

Truly, that's a grass roots effort.

haas414 said...

I have now heard from an eyewitness that Mr. Wurzelbacher may have been trying to intervene -- but the fact remains that a mob had surrounded the individual.

Joe said...

Take a look here:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mob

If your definition of a "mob" around this man was "any collection of people or things" then you are correct.

This crowd was only disorderly in its speech, not in its physical actions. It was not disorganized. It did not do anything illegal, which is proven by video. It is not illegal to yell in someone's face, especially if they are yelling right back at you. I don't think they can be classified as a group who overstimulated themselves into loss of control... as it seems that everything was under control until THIS GUY showed up.

And on to Joe the Plumber. All eyewitness accounts have now stated that he was trying to intervene, or break up the altercation. So why keep mentioning it? Basically what you're saying is "Joe the Plumber is a good guy." Isn't that counter-productive to your viewpoint of conservatives?

Still waiting for Renee's response as to how she was at the parking lot on the south end, then miraculously onto the north end, 350 yards away.

mark scotch said...

I posted the following on a different blog, felt it was worth repeating here, should the owner of this blog feel it worthy of print. If not, well, it's her choice:

I was there, as well. Watched the guy making his way through the crowd. Next time he should announce his own rally, along with his buddies that scurried out, the PIRATES FOR OBAMA, and see who shows up. Sure, he was trying to get out, after making his way into the middle of the crowd and not only mouthing off but getting physical. It could be he wanted to get smacked by someone so he could sue for battery or something.

Angry white men, what a irresponsible, incendiary, ignorant comment to make considering 95% of the crowd was white. Obama was right about one thing yesterday, anyone today wanting 15 minutes of fame is having a field day by playing the race card.

Further, as being right there, there were women in the same crowd. If you were truly there and not just referring to the video, you’d have known this.

Crawford's Take said...

"We decided to double back and go into the parking lot behind the rally and just go quietly watch and check out what was going on."

Those were my exact words... I never said I was anywhere near the south parking lot... We drove south along the lakefront (remember we were joy riding the lakefront like we do every weekend and live in Shorewood), saw the protest and "decided to double back" which means we were then headed north. We almost didn't stop, but I thought it would be fun to just see what was happening and talked my husband into going into the NORTH lot behind the event. Perhaps you're definition of "behind the rally" is different than mine. I generally think of behind as walking up behind the backs of the crowd towards the rally.

I can't for the life of me figure out why this matters... If you take that into account though, isn't it amazing how my yardages suddenly make sense?

My husband is in several of the videos, look for a cute blonde white guy (see I don't hate white people, my mother and husband of 22 years lack melanin in their skin), I haven't seen me in them either. Some of them were taken when I went to get the sheriffs and when the reports come out, they should include my eyewitness statement to the sheriffs. You should be able to call the sheriffs and get a confirmation that I gave them a statement...

What I'm seeing here, is that there are a bunch of nearly insane comments coming out that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

I appreciate the more sane comments, but to equate McKenna's speech with a Jesus turn the other cheek message is near sacrilege the way I read the Bible. The Christian faith deserves more respect than that...

I am a life long Christian, so don't waive your Bible in my face, self righteousness is not Christ-like...

For those of you who are now questioning anything from whether or not I was there to the crassness and discussion stopper that my husband's penis size is up for discussion, get a grip. I have no idea what your interest is in my husband's size, but I'm also on the board of Equality WI, so whatever works for you, just leave my husband out of it.

And again with the assassination references... What's up with your movement and it's sudden fascination with presidential assassinations???

Crawford's Take said...

We had no agenda walking in there or we would have stopped at the south parking lot and hung out with the pro-health care people. No, the last conservative rally I attended was when I was 16 for Ronald Reagan. I was honestly curious about what would be said (after watch the rest of the speeches that day on video this weekend, they are pretty boring...) and went as a spectator. You have to remember I'm a libertarian as well. A democratic libertarian, but a hard core libertarian none-the-less, I've been interested in these messages, but have only gotten bits and pieces, so wanted to see the crowd, experience it and understand what's happening. You have to remember two of my favorite bloggers and good friends are Capper and Widgy... We rarely agree, but sometimes do, what I like about them is the sanity of their arguments. Make me respect you, don't disgust or belittle me and we can talk.

So let me get this straight though, you are saying I wasn't there, but instead watching video of it at home... where? (that didn't surface for HOURS after I posted) somehow tweeting the events AS THEY HAPPENED, but I was really on the south side of the event not the north side as I stated where the incident happened, and somehow I had a SPY who WAS there texting updates to me comfortably at home which I then didn't retweet, but instead, plagiarized to fake that I was somehow getting the scoop... Honestly? Really? That's your debunking of my story? You can't do any better than that? LOL! Akem's Razor dude...

I'm in a black chick in a black and white dress with spaghetti straps in case anyone did catch a shot of me... Nice though that you acknowledged that the diversity of the angry crowd was non-existent ;) By the way, the only person who looked me in the eye the ENTIRE event as I was smiling and walking around before I got so scared, was another black woman who mistakenly thought I was a rebel like her...

mark scotch said...

wow...sad, but "wow" none the less.

Joe said...

Fine. Maybe you were there. I'm still not convinced, but I'm a skeptic and can admit it. It still seems odd as you are the only "bystander" I've heard that has admonishes the man who was arrested. LOOK at the videos. He is CLEARLY being aggressive when he gets in someone's face.

And again, let me reiterate... police don't arrest someone, especially with that use of force, unless the arresting officers (who ARE in the video) witnessed him doing something that warranted such an arrest.

Please show me where I referenced Christianity, or "threw my Bible" in your face? Where did I say anything that was self-righteous?

Fact of the matter is, you accused a coservative talk show host of using "violent" speech, when in actuality she was repeating words that had been used by prominent Democrats in the same manner over previous months (see my previous posts for links).

If you listen to her show at all, or posted the entire content of her speech, you would know why she said to say "thank you" when you are called a bigot, or to laugh when called a nazi. If I oppose Obama's policies and legislation and give you multiple reasons why I think they will fail and/or are detrimental to this country, and your first instict is to pull the race card with no other valid response... it means I'm winning the debate, and thank you for helping to prove my point.

You chastise her for standing behind the beliefs of the founding fathers.

This wasn't an anti-government rally. It wasn't even attempting to mask itself as an anti-health care rally. It was an anti-tax rally. Boston Tea Party... American colonists dump tea into Boston Harbor to protest England's unfair tea taxes. This was a "Tea Party." Just because a lot of the people there were "anti-government" doesn't mean it was that type of rally.

And again with the assassination references... What's up with your movement and it's sudden fascination with presidential assassinations???

Obviously you didn't look at any of the links I posted, but it was YOUR party's illustrious Speaker of the House that brought up the matter of assassinations. You asked if we thought these matters were funny? Was anyone laughing? Was Vicki laughing when she said them? I didn't realize she had been brought to the stage as the comic relief, but that maybe she had something valid to say.

Yes, I will laugh if someone calls me a racist or a nazi. I will laugh because the person saying such things is ignorant. I don't care that Obama black. Give me Michael Steele or Condy Rice in 2012, they've got my vote. For prominent Liberals to say that opposition to Obama is racially motivated and not genuine is SO IGNORANT I don't know where to begin.

And finally...

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson

mark scotch said...

Joe,
good pts. on the ANTI-GOVERNMENT comments. I was thinking the same. Renee made sure that's the title of her blog entry. If she had lableled it ANTI BIG-GOVERNMENT I could and would respect that.
But, according to her we have to MAKE HER RESPECT US...so, what happened to EARNING RESPECT?

IMO, it's going out the same door that earning anything anymore is going. Just wait long enough and it will be given to you, it seems.
Spend beyond your means, whether personal or national, and it's OK. Pass the cost of your bad decisions (and laws?) on to someone else.
I agree that there are a lot of injustices in this world and in this country, but it seems to me we are getting carried away with the current train of thought on how to address these injustices.
Geitner said it best, Never Let A Good Crisis Go To Waste.
If the left wanted to deal with the issues and not push their agenda, I could RESPECT that.

mark scotch said...

I should add, on the Left and the RIGHT.

Call Me Mom said...

Joe,
I think she was referring to my comment on her other post on this matter. I remarked that Ms. McKenna's comments were not intended as humor but were paralleling (perhaps unintentionally), Christ's remarks on how His disciples should count it as proof of their effectiveness in spreading the gospel when people cursed them for His sake.

It was not my intent to say Ms. McKenna's message was Christ -like, nor to equate it with Jesus' turn the other cheeck message, I was merely using that as a commonly understood reference to clarify Ms McKenna's intent.

Perhaps the misinterpretation of what I said was merely a function of my lack of clarity in posting, or perhaps it is an indicator that Ms Crawford's and/or my own biases continue to prevent us from communicating effectively.

Jason said...

Renee, since you're calling the protesters anti-government I'd like to share this link with every one here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxmpTMGhU0


There’s no way Renee Crawford saw or heard what she claims to. There is VIDEO of what she did claim to see. That video can be found here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dg4m-AzuKc
If you read Renee’s account and watch the video I posted you’ll see the differences. I could be wrong here, but there are only three reasons I can think of for this
A) Renee wasn’t actually there and is writing this from hearsay
B) She’s…embellishing (read: Lying) to make a more juicy story
C) For some reason she’s experiencing reality differently than the rest of us
D) She was at a different rally
…anti-gov’t/anti-healthcare rally with about 300-500 people at Veteran’s Park.
Ok, 300 to 500, I don’t think that estimate can even remotely be put into the realm of ‘wrong’ this is a deliberate lie, or she was at a different rally
The crowd was growing (eventually to about 30 people) and the man clearly scared and angry and being grabbed, pushed and surrounded to impede his attempts to escape, I believed was in imminent danger. He was shouting back at them and attempting to defend himself from the crowd
The video shows that aside from someone putting a hand on his shoulder to turn him towards the exit no one was touching him when he walked past the fence/barrier there was no one behind him “impeding his path”. Further the video shows LE had converged in the area just to make sure no one got out of hand.
– As an aside you can see in the video that he’s not bloody as he’s leaving the event
– Also ‘about 30 people’ would have been 6-10 percent of the Renee’s entire crowd
Renee actually does mention the young woman in her post as well
l…there was something about a broken camera…
There was a girl who said something about someone in that crowd punching her
The problem is that she is reporting AS FACT things that are clearly contradicted in the video. I looked at her profile and given the level of involvement in the community, what she posted cannot be described as anything other than irresponsible.
According to her post even the police received different information.
The sheriffs said to me, “Well, that’s a different story than the other people just told us.”
In the section I provided she is not offering an opinion, she is presenting a scary situation to her readers. What would the purpose of that be other than to present a very different impression of what was otherwise a peaceful event?
If not for the people who filmed the even the reality wouldn’t have come out At least not in a form where the reality of the situation could be seen – we’d just be yelling back and forth about who’s eyewitness account is believable. In her posts she even tries to have it both ways: on the one hand she’s offering an eyewitness account, and on the other she “ran to get the sheriffs” Which is it? How can she be giving a statement of what went on while she was running to get the sheriffs? I’ve read some of the posts from her readers. Some of them are acting like she just came back from a war zone

Now maybe Renee doesn’t think that someone striking a woman should result in the police attempting to intercede and place the person in custody. Personally I have to agree with the crowd, that is a great use of law enforcement and our tax dollars

Joe said...

Hey Jason...

Nice. Very nice.

It is the responsibility of the patriot to protect his country from its government.

-Thomas Paine

Joe said...

http://deekaman.blogspot.com/2009/09/milwaukee-tea-party_1440.html

Aerial photos of the tea party. I'd say a little bit more than 300-500 people.

Hukt on fonic werkt fer mee, and sew did hukt on arithmatec!

Seriously, you can't post crap like that and not expect people to blaze you for it.

Samual said...

This is typical rhetoric from a liberal, liberals are the most arrogant,self-centered people i had the displeasure to meet.
I have noticed that liberals are also the most segregationists people, there was no reason to mention race or what color someone is but that was the mention right from the start.

www.anti-liberal-revolution.blogspot.com